Unleashing the Power of Trust, Empathy, and Influence to Build Amazing Teams w/ Erin Corr Miller

Erin Corr Miller: They're like, I want a high-performing team, high productivity. And I'm like, okay, is the environment you're creating going to give you that output?

Doug Dosberg: I'm Doug.

Una Japundza: I'm Una.

Doug Dosberg: That was Erin Corr Miller. And this is our podcast. Amazing teams. Join us as we have conversations with remarkable people who are building amazing teams.

Doug Dosberg: Erin Corr Miller, welcome to the Amazing Teams podcast.

Erin Corr Miller: Thank you.

Doug Dosberg: I want to tell our listeners how special this is for me because you and I worked together many, many years ago, and you were my happiness coach. And I want to thank you because you inspired me to want to work on software that helps people feel more appreciated but ultimately makes them happier. So thank you for that.

Erin Corr Miller: That is so kind of you going to make me all teary-eyed. But yeah, I was curious. I was like, I need to ask Doug. Like, Why did he like me as a coach? Like, what? What? What did I leave in his pathway other than, like, focusing on joy? I think that's always a good thing.

Una Japundza: Doug, I'm curious about the answer. We can intercept this.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. What did you like?

Doug Dosberg: I think it was the ability to talk to you. Right? I think people find it easy to talk to you. And I don't know if that has to do with your training or what, but I felt comfortable and safe, and I think that's really important for people.

I want to give you a proper introduction because that's what we do on the Amazing Teams podcast. And so, I grabbed just a little bit here from LinkedIn.

Erin Corr Miller is a human resources and people development professional with a passion for diversity, equity, and inclusion. With her empathetic leadership style and keen understanding of power of coaching, Erin has been a driving force in implementing successful DEI strategies within the organizations she has worked with. She's also certified as an Agile coach and certified in Crucial Conversations, which is so interesting to me. What is this crucial conversation thing?

Erin Corr Miller: Yes, Crucial Conversations is the framework that you can use in order to have conversations when there are high stakes or high emotions. It's just a framework that you can go through, and it gives you a really healthy way to approach those difficult conversations. And what I like about it is it really starts with yourself and getting your head straight before you go into that conversation. One thing that I think some companies run into is they cultivate a really great culture. They want everyone to have fun. They want everyone to be nice. And then what happens is when a conflict arises, no one is sure how to approach it.

Doug Dosberg: Let's talk about what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. So I'm an accidental people person. I accidentally fell into human resources, and I'm so glad I did. I started my career in sales, and then during my time at The Fool, where Doug and I worked together, I was moved over to the People team, and I really credit them with taking a chance on me and allowing me to find my calling.

I've always loved people. I've always cared deeply and just always been curious and fascinated about why do humans do what they do. And so getting into this work in the corporate structure, it's really helped me kind of peel back the layers of, okay, what does make a company great? What makes an amazing team? Why does this individual contributor have such a better experience than this person? And so I think leading people teams over the last seven years, I've been able to really have the 10,000-foot view and vision and help organizations really understand how to create those types of cultures.

Una Japundza: All of these years of experience. I'm curious: what does an amazing team feel like to you?

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah, so an amazing team. I would say one, you know, there's definitely a high level of trust. And, you know, when I say trust, it can't just be, you know, I trust them to watch my dog. But it's I trust them to make the right decision. I trust them with this project. And I think you get to trust by really understanding your teammate's strengths and really, you know, when a project is headed in that direction and, you know, someone's strength is going to be the best position for that, getting out of their way and kind of giving them the autonomy and allowing them to do what they need to do. I think at the high level of trust and, you know, working with different managers over the years, it's the managers who they might care a lot, but if they're in their micromanaging and just, you know, I need to check on this person, there are so many times that I'm like, back away. Let them make some mistakes because you want them to be tapping into their potential, and they can't do that if you have all these safety rails in place.

Una Japundza: Erin, in preparation for this conversation, I Googled your name, and I saw what comes up, and I found this talk. I think it was called The Power of Brazen Trust. And you were talking about your son climbing a Harley and how you kind of jumped and leaped to save him from potentially falling. But then you realized I should probably trust. Right? Your husband was trusting him to climb. So, you know, we all say trust is great and but how do we give people trust, right? It's easier said than done. So I'm curious. You experienced it in that moment, and probably we all have. How does one let go?

Erin Corr Miller: It starts with self-management. You know, there are so many people that you want to read, all the books you want to understand how do I do this? And usually it's, you know, figure it out for the other person. But really it starts with you. In it, you have to look at, okay, what are my strengths, where are my weaknesses? Do I talk to people so I can understand my blind spots and then really leaning into those areas and, you know, your weaknesses are always going to be your weaknesses. You might work on them a little bit. See if you can improve. But what I found is if you partner with people where you know you're weak and they're strong, it creates a great partnership. A great team. But again, building trust, allowing people to have that bandwidth of trust, it starts with yourself. It starts with, okay, you know, what areas can I let go of?

And then also, you know, there's a beautiful thing that happens when you give someone that autonomy that they need, and they prove that they can do it without you. You know, the best run teams are the ones that are performing, whether they're bosses overlooking their work and overlooking, you know, how they're acting around each other, and when they're not, you know, that team is running along the same whether the boss is in the room or not. That is an amazing team, and it does. It starts with that self-management. Okay, I'm actually going to sit back and wait and see what happens versus I don't trust them enough, so I'm going to jump in before I can even see what their potential is.

Doug Dosberg: I love the whole Harley story.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. My son was three when I gave that talk, and now he's ten, so he's not getting a Harley. Let's just start there.

Una Japundza: What happened at the end? Did he fall off the Harley, or was it he earned trust?

Erin Corr Miller: He earned trust. He was good to go, and he was just happy and proud of himself. So that was kind of the reward of actually stepping back and letting him do his thing.

Doug Dosberg: I love stories, and I think our listeners love stories, too. So, how about a good Motley Fool story?

Erin Corr Miller: Oh, my gosh. A good Motley Fool story. Oh, man. There's so many, and half of them I probably can't even tell on the air, so I'll leave it at that. Oh, a good Motley Fool story. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I was scrolling through my pictures the other day and, you know, talking about, like, building teams and doing fun stuff. There's a book I'm going to I think it's Dan Heath who wrote the book Moments. And it's where you create moments for people and creating memories. And I think that's one thing that, you know, during my time with The Motley Fool, they were really good at creating those moments. And so, you know, speaking of my son, I'm scrolling through my pictures the other day with him, and there's a Cher impersonator holding Ben, who's like six months old. And that was a moment at The Fool because I remember our marketing team was doing something, and we were, you know, there's a big Twitter thread happening, and someone who tweeted back to us was Cher. And I was on the People team at that time. And I remember, I think it was like two days before the company meeting. It was like we have to find a Cher impersonator. And I'm like, Where do we work? What are we doing? But then that happened, and it it created a moment, and it was fun. And it's something to talk about; has nothing to do with work. But it created a fond memory of Who am I around? What were we doing?

Doug Dosberg: I remember that moment, and I remember thinking to myself, What is this crazy place? Where am I working? This is right. This is surreal.

Una Japundza: One thing that Doug you said makes you think no matter what you believe in, the best coach you ever had is that you can talk to her. So I'm curious, like, how do, Erin. How do you do that? Is it like, is this something you can teach people in the sense of you helped Doug trust you? Sounds like you do, though, with teams and companies that you lead as well. How does how does one do that?

Erin Corr Miller: I would say, number one, it's it's got to be authentic. You know, when someone is being real with you, you know when they're not. And so, you know, I always come from a place of authenticity. I think the second thing is you have to be invested in that individual. You have to get to know them, and you have to show that you truly care.

You know, when I work with managers on one-on-ones and building relationships and what does that look like if, you know, in the beginning of the relationship, if you're not sitting down with that individual and asking them, you know, what do you love about working here? What do you not love about working here? What do you wish you had on your resume? What can we figure out on how to get you there? You know, who's your partner? Do you have kids? You know? Do you have plants? Do you have pets? And really getting to know the whole person, I think, is really important. And especially in a remote environment that so many of us have been over the last couple of years. It's easy to jump on Slack or book a meeting and jump right into work. And if you don't take the time to build up that social capital with the people that you work with, it's going to come back to bite you because the moment that you reach that conflict, now you're arguing with Doug, who lives across the country, not, oh, I know Doug. He listens to this music. He just went to this music festival. His pet's name is X. You've got two kids. That brings a level of empathy that's really, really important.

And again, it has to start with authenticity. And I think another way that I make it safe for people to talk to me is I also share a lot about myself. And I think when you lead and you're comfortable saying, okay, here's some things that I want you to know about me, it really opens the door for the individual to then share about themselves. And so leading by example is also really important. But again, without authenticity, it's not going to work.

Una Japundza: I love what you said that about sharing or starting first because a lot of people, we all sometimes, want things to be better. Let's say our culture or our team is not amazing. We want it to be amazing, and we want people to trust us. But we might make it. We might not be the ones trusting someone else. So, taking being the first one saying I'm going to extend to lend a hand, this is a more tactical question, but what do you think about it? Which level of trust should one start when they're starting to work with other people? Let's say you join a team. Should you assume trust from the start, like full-on? Should you be a little bit hesitant? Like, what's a good way to approach, let's say, joining a team or someone else joins a team? And how do you where do you start?

Erin Corr Miller: I love this question because I've definitely had this discussion with multiple people because I think I'm on one end of the spectrum and I've definitely talked to people on the other end of the spectrum. I am someone that I will give you trust until you prove me wrong. I come in assuming that we are on the same team that you're going to trust me to do the work that I need to do. I'm going to trust that you're going to do the work that you need to do to the best of our abilities. And then I've definitely talked to the person that's like, no, you earn trust. You don't get trust. Trust and verify. So, you know, there's definitely both ends of the spectrum. And, you know, just speaking for myself, my experience has been when I go in and lead with trust, and I trust them. And, you know, I start from that place. Relationships go a lot smoother and a lot better. I think when you come in and you're, you know, it doesn't mean you can't be a little skeptical. I think that's okay and healthy in some regard. But if you come in very standoffish, you're not approachable, you're really holding all your cards. You kind of get what you give. And so, again, if you're not willing to open the door, if you're not willing to share and kind of show that value that you have, you're going to be less likely to get that from someone else. What do you think, Una? How do you approach trust?

Una Japundza: The same way you do the same way. And sometimes. Sometimes, you get burned. Right? Or you may be, you know. Yeah. Too strong. You might get disappointed, right? Well, you expect you don't. You don't get necessarily. But I think it's personally a better way to live. I can sleep better at night. I don't want to think about how is this person going to fail me today. I always think about how is this person going to live up to whatever we talked about. And I think especially in companies and teams, there's already a natural like qualifying factor like we got hired into the same company, were interested in the same things. So there is more qualification, and you know that this person has gone through some vetting, and you have a lot more in common versus trusting a stranger on the street. Right? That just approached you. So I think it's even in companies like that, I think it's even more important to start with, start with trust and then work your way backward if the trust has failed.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And I think, again, you know, taking time to build up that social capital with people is really important. You know, it used to be easy. We'd pass each other in the hallway, or we'd go play bocce ball on a Tuesday. And again, now that we're in a remote setting, if your organization is then taking specific time to create those moments and make sure that there's that connection, you can also do it on your own. You know, that's one thing that when I come into organizations, you know, my title may say VP of People or, you know, culture is part of it. I may oversee it, I might be the project manager, but every single person that works at the organization owns culture. And you make a decision every morning when you log in to work: you're either going to contribute positively, or you're going to contribute negatively. And that's a you thing, and you have to manage yourself. And I think again, in a remote workforce, you have to be conscious about, okay, how was my day? Did I ask my A.M. meeting, how are you doing? You know, how have the kids been? What do you have coming up this weekend? Like taking even just two or 3 minutes at the beginning of every meeting just to check in with someone can go a long way.

Doug Dosberg: Now, I know you're working with a lot of executives right now. What topics are you guys talking about?

Erin Corr Miller: A couple of topics that I'm working with executives right now. You know, one, again, just building culture, especially in the technology industry right now, over the last year, we've seen so many layoffs and turnover and a lot of people switching careers. And, you know, the one thing that I'm working with executives on is, again, building the cohesion that needs to happen on a team, really making sure that you are taking time out not only to build skill set and ensure performance management productivity, but to have some of the ancillary stuff happening on your team And you know, it doesn't mean trivia or, you know, face to face like wine tasting, but it's genuine connection. It's from agile coaching. One of the exercises that I love doing is a journey line, and it's basically you take a piece of paper, you draw a straight line, and then you go through different parts of your life, kind of the ups and downs. And I've facilitated a few executive sites where I've done that with very experienced executives, and I have yet to have one of those where someone is not teary-eyed or, you know, has shared something that they're like, I can't believe I'm sharing this with you, but I really wanted to. And when you have those moments of authentic sharing and really being true about who you are, it builds such a connection. So that is one, you know, just team connection and team cohesion.

I think the other one is building in engagement. Everyone is so, you know, I think everyone's reaching burnout. Everyone's staring at a computer screen for 12 hours a day. You know, if you're a fresh college student and you're working for the first time remotely, and you live by yourself, you know, you have to think about, you know, how is this individual showing up to work? What are their connections look like? And I think managers have a hard job these days because it's not just: is this person getting their work done? We as managers now have to think about the whole human, you know: is their mental state okay? Are they getting out at lunch to take a walk so that they can get some fresh air? Are they missing deadlines, or is there something going on in their personal life? And, you know, so a lot of executives, I'm just helping them see the value in getting to know the whole person. And then, you know, going back to what HeyTaco does, you know, getting constructive feedback, it's very, okay, here are the things you're doing wrong. Here are the things we need to see. But what a lot of managers still aren't doing is giving positive recognition to their people. And I've seen a few different ratios out there. But one thing that I love is the the 5 to 2 ratio. So, for every five positive bits of feedback that you give someone, then you give them one or two pieces of constructive feedback.

And again, if you put, you know, I call it making deposits in the bank, if you've made 20 deposits to that individual or that teammate when it comes time to say, Hey, I see something that I think we should work on, they're going to be way more open to that feedback versus if you've only been giving them negative feedback over the last couple of weeks, they're going to be like, Great, this guy has something else I'm doing wrong.

Una Japundza: Erin, have you read The Seven Habits of Highly Affected People?

Erin Corr Miller: I have. I actually think it might be on my shelf over there. Yes.

Una Japundza: In one of the habits I forgot, he talks about. What is it called? The bank. Emotional bank account. Emotional bank account. Right? Which reminds me a lot of what you just said. You have to if you're going to withdraw all the time, there's nothing to withdraw anymore because you haven't made any deposits. Right? Whether it's in terms of trying to connect or ask questions, or sharing appreciation, no bank account can be withdrawn forever. Right? You have to make deposits into it.

Erin Corr Miller: Exactly. That's true. And, you know, going back to that emotional bank account when it comes to having an amazing team. One topic that we've talked about is psychological safety. And I think that was a really hot topic maybe four or five years ago, and I think it's coming back into play, but with psychological safety. The other thing that's important that's kind of under that umbrella is allowing an environment of continuous learning and the ability to make mistakes.

One of the leaders that I supported a while ago at The Fool, again, one thing that he did with everyone that reported to him, and I think I talk about this in my brazen trust talk, but he always told people that reported to him, your first mistake is on me. And that is so powerful. Again, you know, managers, executives, they're like, I want a high-performing team, high productivity. And I'm like, okay, what is the environment you're creating going to give you that output? Because if you're not creating environment where someone can make mistakes, or they truly feel unleashed, or they've got the autonomy to do what they need to do, they're never going to innovate at the level that they can because you're going to have guardrails in the way. And so again, continuous learning, having a team that's like, you know what? You, you, you went for that shot you missed, but let's keep going. That is an amazing team. You've got that built in to kind of the makeup of who you are.

Una Japundza: How many mistakes do I have on you?

Doug Dosberg: Oh, I stopped counting.

Una Japundza: the first ten. Yeah, I remember you did say that in that talk, and I thought it was very interesting because, you know, we talk about these concepts of psychological safety and even inclusion and equity, but like, what does that mean? And what you mentioned about this executive is this is what it means in practice, right? To build that environment, you tell people, make a mistake and it's okay, right? No, you're not going to get your head chopped off. You're not going to get fired. But how do you turn things that we value into behaviors we can actually practice and do every single day? Right?

Erin Corr Miller: Absolutely. And I think, you know, great leaders or leaders of great teams are natural synergistic. They bring people together. And I think, you know, that's something that I, I mean, my mom says I've never met a stranger. And it's like anywhere I go, I'm talking to whoever. And I am a connector at heart. And it's because I really see, okay, this person is really good at this thing over here, and this person wants to get there. Let me put them together. And, you know, one of the individuals that I've worked with in the past who now we're dear friends. When I hired her to be on my team, she is we see the world, you know, very similarly. We have similar core values, but how we approach things are very different. And I'm like, okay, let me give you the 10,000-foot view. And she's like, okay, but you forgot the first ten steps of this thing. Like she's very detail oriented that, I'm very out here, and it made us a it was a great partnership, but I had to go outside of my comfort zone to look at. Okay. Because with managers, it's it's a natural bias that you want to hire, okay? This person talks like me, looks like me, sounds like me, does things like me. But as a manager, if you continue to hire that profile, your team is not going to be at the level that it needs to be. You have to hire for where your weaknesses, where the gaps in the team, and that is really where you get that diversity of you know what you need in a team when you look at it through that lens.

Una Japundza: One thing that you mentioned a few minutes ago is that you have to show or prove the value to the executives you were working with in that particular offsite about the power, the importance of looking at the whole employee, the whole human being versus just are the producing work results. Why do people in leadership roles not see the value?

Erin Corr Miller: Why do they not see the value? That's a great question. I think. I think leaders do see the value. I think they just need constant reminders because at the executive level, you're reporting to a board, you're looking at metrics, you're looking at, okay, what's the output, output, output. And, you know, my job as head of people is to remind them you don't get that output. You don't reach those metrics without all of these humans. And that's what they are. Until the robots take over, we still have to interact. We need to understand the humans. And again, you know, as a leader, you have to lead by example. And, you know, there's been a ton of studies done over the last five years. You know, the the overbearing boss, the dictatorship, you know, that used to be old management where it was like show up, do your job, and go home. People do not want to work for that leader anymore. And I remember, you know, funny story when I became the director of People Development, I remember talking to my dad on the phone and telling him what I did. And I said, I do happiness check-ins, and I get employee engagement data. And he was like, How is that a job? He's like, People just need to go to work. And I was like, Nope, it's a whole job. Now, we want to make sure that people are happy in their environments and that we're making changes that we need to make. And so, again, you know, as a people strategist, I am looking at, okay, what are the goals of the business? What are the metrics that need to be hit? And then how do we put people programs in place in order to ensure some of those are being hit?

And again, you know, it's really important that you are focusing on the wellness and the whole person because when, again, another story my mom, I've grown up with her telling me the story. Everyone everyone carries around a bag of rocks. You can always see it. You don't know how big it is. And so I, you know, when especially when I'm in conflict with someone that I work with, I'm trying to picture, okay, how big is their bag of rocks? I don't know what's in there. I'm not sure what they're carrying. And, you know, maybe they have a terrible morning at home, and they've come in to work with some of that energy. Me coming at them is probably not going to make things better. So why don't I take a step back and ask, Hey, how are you doing? You seemed a little off this morning. Is everything okay? Just again, those tiny little moments of how you build trust and empathy, and authentic relationships because you truly see who is this person in front of me versus I need to get this metric from you today.

Doug Dosberg: I love that so much. Is there a risk with, ensuring people are happy?

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. The one thing I've done over the last couple of years is change the name of a happiness check-in to a well-being check-in. And one of the reasons is because I think is happiness is an inside job. And I think, you know, there are some individuals that are just naturally happy, and there's some individuals who are, you know, super happy in their personal life and at home. And work is just work. And so, you know, you might get one version outside of work, one version of an inside of work. And so I think, you know, rather than focusing on are we making our employees happy, I think you should look at, you know, do our employees feel valued? Do our employees feel like they're making an impact? Are we recognizing our employees and, you know, really focusing on that aspect versus are they happy? Because I've also seen people who look at work make a bunch of money, have a great job, and they're like, Yeah, it's my job. And I'm like, Shouldn't you be the happiest person on the planet because of this? And it's like, No, I find my happiness in all these other areas. And so I, you know, again, I think it's worth focusing on value, impact recognition.

Doug Dosberg: Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, yes. In our first in our first episode with Daniel Todd, he had a little quote in there. He said, what was "if you can't be happy here, you can't be happy anywhere." Right? So to your point about it's an internal job for sure. Love that.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I've definitely run into that. You know, and especially I think the technology industry is has spoiled a bunch of people, especially in the early 2000, mid 2000, where it was like we were running adult daycares, like we had ice cream stands and like Cher and all these things and it's like no work and you know, not a jungle gym at 3 p.m. every day. But work is building meaningful connections, developing your skill set, getting really good at something that you can be proud of, and doing it with people that you respect and trust.

Una Japundza: I have a friend who recently transitioned into the tech space and used to work in corporate communications for a bank. And I'm from Croatia, so that's a more traditional workplace than the U.S.. So she calls me, she said it's a big I.T. firm, 3000 developers all over the world. So, you know, these people really care about their free bananas in the office. You can do whatever you want but don't take away the free banana in the office. They're they make so much money. But what's up with the free bananas? Like, I don't understand this, but it was a daycare for pretty much adults, right? With all the free stuff and bananas.

Erin Corr Miller: Oh, yeah. No, that's true. I remember when we took soda out of the offices, and everyone was like. I can't have my Diet Coke. I'm like, walk a block and pay $0.75. We're paying you six figures. Go get a soda. Yes. Well, I think, you know, again, with where organizations are right now, you know, there are a lot of people who used to subscribe to, you know, culture being ping pong tables and pizza parties. And if you're still trying to operate your organization with that mentality, it's just not going to work. And, you know, we we saw that with remote work, everyone is spread out and now it's like, okay, how do we go back to building those authentic connections and how do we go back to ensuring teams are engaged and productive And again, back to, HeyTaco, what are the best ways that you can ensure a team is amazing is letting everyone in the organization have the ability to recognize each other at different levels on different teams and, you know, allowing that positivity to radiate because if you don't double down on, you know, recognition and and highlighting people when they're doing something great, the negativity always spreads two times faster than the positivity. And so you have to work twice as hard.

And even with the science of our brain, our prehistoric brains, we are programmed to be negative. We are programmed to look for the risk, we're programmed to look for the fear. And so I think, you know, just having training and thinking about positivity and optimism and bringing that into your world, you do have to do it intentionally because you have a natural bias to be negative.

Una Japundza: This is where maybe the natural bias, not trust, comes in as well, whether as the manager or joining a new company. Right. Not trust until you prove me wrong versus the opposite.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. Well, the other aspect of trust, and I've had a few conversations with managers over the years regarding this. You know, someone will come to me and say, Oh, this person did this thing, and I think they did it because they don't like me or they're out to get me. And as humans, 90% of our thoughts in our head are about us. And I'm like, I guarantee you have not been a speck in their world today. Like, as humans, we are walking around. We have so many thoughts going on in our own heads. It takes a lot to go out and say, okay, I'm going to go do this thing to this person. So, again, back to building trust. You know, assume positive intent. And I'd rather be disappointed a couple of times versus, you know, go into the world not trusting anyone, you know, in the workplace.

Una Japundza: What effect do you think it has on you as a contributor to a team? Right. You're leading people. You're trying to build the trust. Let's say, you know, you're an employee just like everyone else, you're a member of the team. When you approach, when you might manage yourself an approach with high trust. How does that affect you in your day to day?

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. Well, one, any time, you can lead with integrity and be true to yourself. I think it does something for your self-esteem and just how you carry yourself. And again, I think part of the reason why I was moved from sales of into the people team was I had already established myself as an employee. People knew who I was. People had connections with me. People had relationships with me before I was on the people team. People were coming to me like, Hey, this thing just happened with a coworker. I don't know what to do. And I'm like, Well, did you try this, or did you look at it this way? And so I had already kind of established this is kind of who I am. And so, you know, the other thing that happens when you lead with trust when you have that level of authenticity, you become a leader. It may not be in your title, but people are going to start to see, Oh, they're getting through a lot more complex than I am, or they handle that way healthier than I did this thing the other day. Let me talk to them about how they're doing it. And I think when that type of behavior is seen and encouraged and recognized, more people are going to adopt that behavior the same way. If you have a high-performing jerk who treats everyone terribly but gets promoted and paid well, if that's recognized and rewarded, that is what your culture is going to become.

Doug Dosberg: So true. So, I love tactical stuff. What would you say is one thing leaders could be doing right now that will help them build a better team?

Erin Corr Miller: One thing, you know, I'm a data-driven decision-maker. And, you know, whether your organization is ten people, 400 people, or 10,000 people, gather the data, and you can do that through employee engagement surveys. You can do that through small focus groups. You can do it with one-on-ones. And, you know, for a lot of leaders, if I run an engagement survey and we have to go through the results, so many of them are like, oh, it shouldn't be like this. Or they almost start to take it personally. And I'm like, No, this is our benchmark. This is just where are we? And then as a leader, get that benchmark and then set goals with one or two areas of, you know, for this specific area in the organization, I want to have it improved by 12 months from now and then start to think about, okay, what are the things that we can be putting into place? And so, you know, always get that benchmark. Or, if you have been doing employee engagement surveys, look at where you were a year ago and make sure that you're on track. You know, again, not being afraid to hear the feedback, I think, is really important for leaders. I think sometimes it's safer just to look the other way and keep on having the monthly meeting and saying, hit your numbers. But that is not going to, you know, retain the workforce that you need.

I think the other thing that leaders can be doing again is just continually learning. Be curious. You know, I have a group of people I call my board of directors, and they're a personal board of directors. I have a couple of different mentors, and one of the mentors on my board of directors is a 24-year-old professional. And I reach out to her because, I mean, I can't believe I'm 20 years older than her, but I reach out to her, and I'm like, okay, here's this thing happening. This is the lens that I'm looking through. What am I missing? And I think of more leaders. We're open to help me understand where I don't see it or help me understand what I'm missing. I think things would be a lot better.

I think too many times it's like I'm at the top. You need to listen to me, and you just need to do it. And again, that approach has been proven. People don't want to work for those leaders or those companies anymore.

Doug Dosberg: Yeah, I think you're right.

Erin Corr Miller: Was that tactical enough?

Doug Dosberg: Yeah, that's pretty good.

Una Japundza: Another tactical question for you. Employee engagement is a big phrase, and we hear it all the time when we talk to our customers. What are some things to think about in employee engagement that most people forget to think about? Is there a particular metric that's important that most people overlook or a question leaders should be asking that they forget to ask?

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah, I think sometimes we forget to ask individual contributors about how their managers are doing. I'm a big fan of upward feedback. You know, a lot of times you may ask the grand questions, you know, how was the organization? Do you feel aligned with the core values? But the middle management layer is one of the most critical areas of the organization, and they also have the hardest job. Know they report to executives, so they not only have to funnel information up, but then they're getting strategy from those executives, which they then have to communicate it down to the people on the front lines. And so in organizations, I really like to focus on that middle management layer and understand, you know, where where they're challenges. How are they doing? Have they gotten the foundational management training that they need? Because a lot of times you're promoted to manager, and it's like, Hey, congratulations. Now, you have four people reporting to you, and if you're a smaller company, you don't have management training. So you've got these people dedicated who want to do a good job who just don't have the tools in their tool chest.

So again, focusing on on that middle management layer, I think is important. And again, you know, the management training that I put together, it's foundational, and there's multiple steps. But I try to, you know, iterate along the way based on feedback. So, you know, one area of training, we want managers to get better at goal setting and discuss in career passing. Well, I'm going to ask in 6 to 12 months, the people that report to those managers, you know, have we improved in this area? Do you have a better understanding of the direction you can head in your career? Have you been getting the development that you think you needed so, you know, checking in on that data that you're gathering?

Doug Dosberg: We have currently four core values at Hey Taco, considering adding a fifth and that fifth one being fun. What is your thought around having fun in the workplace, and how does that how does that impact morale? How does that impact happiness?

Erin Corr Miller: I think it's really important. It's like you want to take your job serious, but not yourself. The organizations where I've had the most fun was where I was able to do that. And I think, you know, again, I spent ten years at The Fool and, you know, I think there's probably one other company that I can say where I really felt like, okay, I can do my job, I can have these tough conversations, I can do management training and discuss all these HR Topics that I need to, and i can go joke around, or I can go do something fun, or i can dress up on Halloween or whatever holiday if needed that I want to. And I think fun is really important.

I'm a huge football fan. I love NFL. And, you know, I listen to all these different podcasts. And, you know, one thing that I have been loving seeing is just the way people joke around and, you know, kind of the behind-the-scenes or you watch on TikTok how some of the players are miked up and just how they talk to each other. And I think it's huge for for morale. I think it's huge for connection. And I think as a leader, you know, during my time at Precision Hawk, I had a team of about eight people. That was one thing that we were hiring so many people in such a small amount of time, and we had the most fun that we could. And I look back at those days, and it was crazy, it was stressful, but it was so fun and it was because we had that ability to joke with each other, and every time we hired someone, we'd play. All I do is win, and people would walk by the people office. Like, Why are you guys partying at 2:00 in the afternoon? I'm like, we just hired another person. And so you have to build that, build that in. And I think, you know, for me, in some organizations where it's so serious, I am not a good fit because I joke around like I'm like, well, I don't know that I'm a good, good in this area, but I think it's really important. I think you've got to have that, but you can only have it if the leaders are showing up in that way. You can't have a super executive team and then the next layer, no way they're going to feel comfortable joking around and being that way. So let's go start from the top.

Doug Dosberg: That's a great point. I agree. That's really important.

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah. I'm a little disappointed. You don't have your taco costume on Doug. It takes a very secure, confident man to rock the taco suit. I've seen you do it. I think you can do it again.

Doug Dosberg: I appreciate your support.

Erin Corr Miller: You're welcome. You're welcome.

Una Japundza: Hmm. Erin, what do you think is, you know, you're a people leader and have been working with executives. And one thing you said which really resonated with me was the culture is everyone's role, right? It's not just you as a chief people officer going to come in and save the culture. Right? So what is the role of a people person at all levels of the company in helping build that culture? How can they help influence and measure a change? Like what do they do?

Erin Corr Miller: Yeah, absolutely. So as head of people, you know, you do want to build meaningful relationships with executives, managers, frontline employees. Again, depending on the scale of your organization, that's going to look differently for each different size. But once again, showing up in your most authentic way, showing people that you care. Taking time to listen to people actively listen here or feedback and then act on that feedback is really important. And I think with my sales background and then moving into the people work, a lot of what I do is not like an HR policy that i hand you and say this is what you need to do. So much of my work is conversations and leading by influence and saying, hey, we're going to we're going to do this thing over here on this team. And you, leader over here, i just want you to watch. I want you to see where we start and where we end up. And then once they see that, okay, Erin's done it over here. Let's do it over here on my team. A lot of it is influence and showing the value and the impact of what happens when you care for your people, when you value your people.

And, you know, part of valuing and caring for your people is also holding them accountable and doing it in a really compassionate and kind way. You know, if you've got someone who's reporting to you and in your mind, you're like, this person is not cutting it. It's not going well. If you're not having those direct conversations with that individual, you are failing them, you know, just as much as they are failing you. And so, again, I think with, you know, being a people leader, you also have to show other leaders how do you approach those situations with kindness and compassion? And, you know, again, with so many people being laid off and having to change roles, if someone comes to me and says, hey, I need to cut this person from my team, I want to talk with them about, you know, have we exhausted all these other things before we have to get to the point of letting that individual go. And a lot of that is through influence. It's not, you know, do as you're told because I'm ahead of people. It's, you know, I want you I want your buy in. I want you to understand the why behind this so that as these situations come up, you already know, you know, how is our approach going to look.

Doug Dosberg: That's great. So, as you know, with HeyTaco, we're all about influencing gratitude, right? And you every day, you have five tacos that you can give to someone or multiple people. Who are you giving your tacos to?

Erin Corr Miller: Oh, my gosh. The pressure. I wrote this down so I would give one taco to. I'm thinking I'm going to give it, so I get five. I might do one person per taco visit. Okay.

Doug Dosberg: Yeah. However, I want to do it. All right. I encourage that.

Erin Corr Miller: Okay, good. One taco is definitely going to Janelle Peterson. She is the person that I hired as our director of Precision Hawk. We worked together for a while. She is now the head of people for a startup out of California. I'm giving her a taco because she has been an amazing team member. She has made it really safe for me to talk with her, especially about things that are difficult. And she has also been just my ride-or-die cheerleader in my corner, picking me up when I'm down. She is amazing.

The other taco I'm going to give to my friend Khadijah Canaday. Similarly, she has been someone that has been such a cheerleader in my life and just a really good support, really good friend of mine.

And the last three tacos, I don't know if this is allowed, but I want to give home to my mom because I know, right, mom?

Una Japundza: Of course, it's allowed.

Erin Corr Miller: She's retired, but yes, we'll send them to her anyway. But no, I would say my mom, because, you know, I really think just the way I grew up, I have three sisters that were four of us. I have two kids and I'm barely surviving. So the fact that my mom raised four humans already is so impressive. But I want to give those tacos to my mom because one thing that she did, you know, if you see and meet the four of us core girls, we are all so different. And I attribute this to my mom's ability to see each of us as individuals and really nurture our strength and let us be exactly who we are. And I think all four of us have become just wonderful humans because she instilled that early on. You know, we weren't trying to fit into a box. She wasn't telling us, Oh, you need to take this path. We were running and she was running behind us. Like, you go like, I'm going to see you way through. So the last three go to Mom.

Una Japundza: That's so sweet. Might drop. I don't even know what else to ask. It's so good and happy. I can't even know any of the people you mentioned. But it just makes me excited for them and for you. I feel so good.

Doug Dosberg: Well, Erin, thank you for joining us on the Amazing Teams podcast. Where can people find you on the Internet?

Erin Corr Miller: Yes, they can find me on LinkedIn, Erin Corr Miller. I would love to connect. I'm always happy to talk to people just about management, recognition, people, strategy, coaching, all the things.

Doug Dosberg: Hey. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, then please share this podcast with others. And we'd love to know how we did. You can tell us by going to amazing teams dot com slash feedback.